You need a bio to finish Caine, cause else ifrit is protected, but when you focus on the support panzer already destroyed your bio hero, so this logic is weird. Imo
I’m working from 6* territory but the scaling is linear. 200k for a heal isn’t much for 10* plats. It’s a heal, sure, but like I said other “single target” healers like unskinned Nightingale, Keel, even Operator, all put out wayyyy more healing.
The advantage of a power play is either 1) you kill Ifrit and make the revive question moot or 2) you continue to get other enemy heroes lower, your heroes get back to full HP, your skills are all charging, you’re taking out enemy cover… all these things are pushing the momentum of the match in your favor - the fact that they come back after 15 seconds isn’t going to swing the momentum back to their team, at which point all you have to do is repeat the kill (which given that your team just spent 15 seconds gaining momentum should be easy). It’s annoying in how it slows the game down but it’s hardly OP. It’s the same reason why I can’t even take his Ifrit + Flatline comment seriously. It’s such a weak combo now because you’re bringing 2 squishy heroes with small single-target heals and next to no DPS, it worked with infinite revives and dead-Ifrit revives but those were removed, and even then it all comes back to the fact that those teams rely on Panzer or Dogface (or both) to put out more DPS than many 5-man teams can do combined.
Lastly the logic of “well energy dps would die before being able to kill him” is just pointless. Technically every hero becomes unkillable if you start with the assumption “my dps will kill you before your dps can kill him”. The only reason that applies right now is because energy has no good DPS and mech has INSANE dps.
10* Nightingale is doing 132k instant heal, plus 66k heal over time, but she can overheal and only heal one at a time. Keels and Operators heals are the only ones that provide more heal, but they can over heal and can be broken. His heal is the highest instant heal, making it one of the best in the game.
I wonder if you ever played a PvP match before, or if your are just some troll. So reviving a hero like Dogface doesn´t change momentum, if he unloads his skills on you afterwards? And you have 15 seconds to gain momentum? How is that? Does the game freeze and ony your skills charge? The AI controled heroes will unload there skills. The opponent will keep attacking you, even with four heroes. And he will heal himself too. But I agree, his Platinum is only annoying if you play it right.
The question is, why did the discussion change to his Platinum skill, while we were talking about his Silver beeing to strong? You started to discuss every other skill but his Silver. Just tell me why it isn´t to strong. You failed to do that in your last posts. You only said that it can be broken bei Sterelize. But that would mae Heimlock a mandatory hero and, in facht, isn´t true, because the cooldown of Sterelize is much longer, so you can only use it on every seconds Showtime.
I really don´t get your logic. You want to buff other heroes and nerf others, just to deal with Irfit, instead of just putting 10 seconds of extra cooldown onto his Silver, because that is all he needs to get from OP to an A class hero.
If you are playing on six star level, please consider that on 8/9/10 star all heroes have 100-150k more HP, which makes them alot harder to kill even if you run Dogface or Panzer.
Also, Panzer and Dogface are burst DPS. Panzer has a ton of burst at the beginning of a match, then it tapers off until she gets her bronze back and a full 20 shells reloaded. Even then it’s not nearly as good as the first 30 seconds of a match.
Dogface does decent dps throughout, but it’s when his bronze and silver skills pop that he really shines. This means IF you use Dog and Panzer, you will get a kill in the first 30 seconds and then maybe another 20 seconds in. No matter who you kill with Panzer, Ifrit or Flatline will revive them and it will still be 5v5 by the time Dog’s skills pop. If you killed say Flatline the first time, then Flatline the second she won’t revive. That seems great, but keep in mind most Ifrit/Panzer teams run with Panzer or Dog of their own so you also lost at least 1 hero, who DIDN’T revive (unless you are running mirror match ups).
Also this is if you can get a kill. With all the healing, damage reduction, shielding, etc. going on it’s not really garunteed. It’s very difficult to kill a mobile Ifrit with mech heroes.
I won more games with Plat Ifrit than anyone else in the world last tournament (600+ wins), I’d like to think I know a thing or two.
I didn’t talk more about his silver because I already addressed it. If Ifrit didn’t have his Plat he would be the worst Bio support in the game and I would never use him, I probably wouldn’t even use him for the Ifrit tournaments. Showtime is a joke against most teams, when I get showtimed, as I do hundreds of times a day, I just shrug, and just keep shooting (I might tap a little slower on an automatic weapon if I’m low on ammo and close to a kill). The fact that OP is whining that his 9* plat Dogface can’t go full auto while disoriented is just a sad demonstration that people would rather yell for a nerf than just adjust their gameplay a little. I will say with 100% confidence that Nightingale’s ‘Mark Target’ is a superior silver skill to Showtime yet I’ve never heard a nerf thread about it.
I don’t want to buff and nerf other heroes to “fix” Ifrit, go read Sing’s thread in General, the whole point is that Bio support is very strong right now because energy DPS is extinct and mech DPS dominates the metagame. Ifrit would be irrelevant if he were an energy hero and everyone here knows that’s the truth.
Which might also be making you bias if you have used him that much to win games… ? Maybe you are winning so much because Ifrit is still OP and it’s helping you out, but you don’t realize it or want to believe it?
You can say that about almost any character. Without Dog’s silver he would be a joke. Without Mandrake’s gold he would be a joke. Without Night’s bronze she would be a joke.
As it stands, Ifrit has arguably one of the best platinum skills in the game. Showtime is also really good and I think you are seriously down playing it’s usefulness. If it were JUST the slow, or the slow was only 20%, it might be average. If it only lasted 5 seconds it would be significantly less useful. If it had a longer 30 second cool down it wouldn’t be as great. None of these things are true though, it’s a skill you can have up half the time which slows, disorients, AND gives a small hp and atk boost. Making it so the opponent can’t roll to dodge attacks, misses a ton, and you get more health and attack during this time is a huge bonus. Add to it the revive and mediocre heal and you have a real power house hero.
Having a high damage energy hero will definitely help, but as long as Panzer is around it won’t make a ton of difference. Her being able to evaporate most lower hp DPS right at the start means you need either a way to prevent them from dying the first 30 seconds, OR Panzer needs to be adjusted still so her initial burst.
Honestly you are playing a different game than others. Most of us are progressing our heros in a normal manner, not keeping them at silver+1 with 9* or Plat at level 61. Nothing against you gianing that edge for pvp, but mabye the people you are arguing against have a better understanding of the issue since they are playing with balanced teams at higher power.
Yes you were… and why???
And here you are saying that Gammon is basically better than Panzer… then you say:
Then you start talking trash about other people:
And you reveled your knowledge about the game like this:
I find this way of behaving and writing quite offensive and you claim to know better than others all the time while you are running around with 9 star Silver Panzer doing 40K matches combined with a 7 star Plat Ifrit. Now you defend Ifrit plat as you use him to Revive the rest of your team Min/Maxing.
I won the first Ifrit PvP tournament only playing 60K games with all 5 heros 8-10 star platinum, and I agree to the consensus from most players that the PvP games are now much more boring with the Heal/revive focus you have to do to win, making all matches very long and boring after the August update.
Damn, you hit the nail on the head. I like this guy. Lol
Sigh now every good hero needs a nerf. Every hero that is good in some way with a collection of good skills needs a nerf.
Case Study 1: Can’t deal with it, needs a nerf. Reason: Since I can’t deal with it and none of my friends can, it needs a nerf.
Case Study 2: Can only sometimes deal with it, also needs a nerf. Reason: I should be able to deal with it all the time so that I win 100% of the time. Since I can’t do that it needs a nerf.
Case Study 3: Benefiting from it, also needs a nerf. I am winning alot of games! Too many!
Let’s rename this game… Mediocre Hunters… nothing Heroic about them if we wanna nerf everything.
I hate nerf talk.
I’m just gonna add here why I hate nerf talk.
Out of the 60 heroes I have, 50 are already crap. Nerfing Ifrit (who isn’t even that great) would just add another to the list.
Do we want to do that?? Why, for goodness sakes???
Why don’t we take the game forward for once, instead of backwards again.
Let’s look at our hero list. Let’s go down, one by one, and see what the situation really is. And let’s ask ourselves and each other… is nerfing another hero the way to go? Is it gonna make the game a BETTER GAME?
Let’s start with the 2 native 7 star heroes.
Hero ------- Rating
Artemis - Fucked Up
Prophet - Fucked Up
Let’s go down to the native 5 stars.
Heckler - Bad
Francoise - Bad
Phoenix - Bad
Odachi - Good
Chesterfield - Bad
Razorback - Used to be good but now not good.
Hideo - He has no place in any decent pvp team. In my opinion he deserves a Bad rating. But someone here had good things to say about him. Best case for Hideo, he gets a Poor rating instead of Bad.
Oracle - Bad
Heimlock - Excellent
Phalanx - Bad, perhaps not the worst on the scale but pretty bad too.
Let’s do the 3 stars.
Panzer - Excellent
Savage - Bad
Yanlong - Bad
Mandrake - Excellent
Steele - Bad
Hive - Bad
Oro - Bad
Scum - Bad
Flatline - Good
Caine - Excellent
Operator - Bad
Surge - Bad
Salvatore - Bad
Cinder - Bad
Halo - Bad
Moss - Decent
Sapph - Bad
FIscher - Bad
Mauler - Bad
Clyde - Bad
Ronin - Bad
Bolt - Bad
Callidus - Bad
Ifrit - Good
Gammond - Bad
Fortress - Bad
Halloway - Bad
Keel - Decent or Above Average
Baron - Bad
Richter - Bad
Elite Rifleman - Bad
Galante - Bad
Vanguard - Bad
Let’s do the 2- and 1-stars.
Pris - Bad
Cross - Bad
Butter - Bad
Sentry - Bad
Dogface - Excellent
Hardscope - Poor
Maven - Poor
Castellan - Bad
Ghoul - Bad
Ryker - Bad
Matador - Bad
Kunoichi - Bad
Nightingale - Excellent
Cast - Bad
Beck - Bad
Cmon guys, let’s see the real problem here.
Either we want to nerf the non Bad heroes to be the same as the rest.
Or we demand a better damn game and get the other heroes up to speed with the good ones.
Stop crying for nerfs, dammit.
Stop being one-dimensional and thinking that nerfs are the only way to balance the game.
Stop being lazy and thinking that the devs can only do nerfs.
Stop limiting the devs’ options.
Stop allowing the devs to take the easy and lazy way out and making them nerf things when they should be working on the majority of 50 heroes that are broken and Bad. Why aren’t we asking them to fix those? Instead we ask them to de-power good heroes.
Stop having low and fucked up expectations like that.
(sorry for the language but seriously I cannot take it anymore).
(I’ve edited my post to clean up the language because it was inappropriate and I’ve calmed down now (after 5 hours))
Heart for the long fucked up list, which I agree to. I also believe that if the devs actually care, they would try to rework other toons. But I highly doubt that. They’re already selling the new toon next month.
BUT ifrit definitely needs a nerf. Maybe you can call it “rebalancing.” He’s a new toon that the devs never tested. No one actually wanted a reviver with no cooldown when we just had flatline. But HHG is on a roll, like a series of mistakes has been happening for short term gains.
Mauler ain’t fucked up; he’s amazing.
And according ot me at least 25 other guys are also totally OK. There will always be a couple of heroes that are THE BEST but that doesn’t mean that everyone else sucks. Try new team combinations and get surprised. Mauler for instance is amazing with Oracle and Ifrit.
Speaking of Oracle, I can’t believe that she’s fucked up in any situation; she’s really really good.
Sing nails it as always while the 2 trolls who think Panzer has been OVERNERFED are still trying to push Ifrit nerfs.
Nailfox you weren’t even in the Top 20 of the first Ifrit tournament, I was 2nd place. What are you smoking? People don’t like the endless healing and reviving meta but that’s a result of role warfare, not Ifrit. Even without Ifrit youd just get Heim/Night/Caine/etc. Teams that can keep themselves alive indefinitely. Then you quote yourself in another thread about Gammond and say you don’t like that attitude… your own attitude?!
Who would have guessed the two biggest Panzer defenders would be trying to nerf a bio support, just shocking.
@Sogui, the reason my odachi gets killed is because he roles around with 60% reduced speed, not being able to reload, shoot or do anything…
If you complain about that one screenshot I can show you a ton of others if that makes you happy?
I don’t think I need to screenshot every single time it happened? Or post 100 screenshots a day to show the issue?
I don’t see what’s funny in that screenshot, maybe you can explain it to me?
I do think it’s funny you use a 10* silver gammond, 9* silver panzer, 9* gold mandrake, 7* plat ifrit and 6* plat Caine, the exact problem ifrit gives anyone, unable to engage him because of the speed reduce and Caine giving him counter measures, btw you’re min maxing in another league then most of the others, maybe that’s why you’re at the top?
EDIT: don’t you think it’s funny?
I’d like to chip in for two things:
I agree with the statement neither ifrit (nor Panzer seeing she bombed this thread too) needs any further nerfing. What we need is a viable counter to dogface or panzer to shake up the meta. I would almost consider fielding any energy dps rabbit hunting season, where dogface(not so much before skill triggers) or panzer(very much)go to town and are able to maul the very first thing their iron sights are fixated at.
I cannot claim to be the very best heromon trainer, but I do alright scoring top 500 usually. What I see however is not that I find Ifrit strong in an overpowered sense. Heck I don’t generate salt over a Panzer/flatline/ifrit plat combo either. It’s just the tools I’ve been given to do the job are not enough. So far I see myself doing one of the following things:
as soon as I see a plat panzer, it’s dark souls time. Just roll around like I see that psa on stop drop n roll until that shelling is done felling me. I felt that being ok in a game where rolling is part of game mechanics. However, here (this game) hitting heroes on the move is a little wonky with the lag and to abuse hit box lag ain’t defining a cool gameplay strat to me. Panzer has spread shot anyway so still may mean I get hit tons, at least a little less…
use stagger heroes and pray. I tend to field gale or mandrake(his plat can trigger from any hero, that one second i get seems to sometimes work) to get a stagger in every now and then and hope they hit for the second proc. As others said, maybe I’ll just pump some stuff in mauler as he seems to have become interesting to counter dps with with all his mauling.
I was so relieved I had a chance of competing again when they downed panzer’s damage and cds a little already. I feel she is good as she is, as she does fulfill her role of steam roller very well. I am not too fond of boarding the flavor flave train to join fotm builds. My panzer still lurks in silver with about 6 stars or so because I feel that’s just not the game I want to play. This does not mean I automatically condone anyone for using the team builds as they do(when I keep bringing my knife to an automatic shotgun fight with defibs in the retinue…)all the more power to you. However, I want tactics and clutch gameplay, and most of all, I want to use every single hero and have a good chance of winning.
In short, the thing I am disappointed with is that our current top 200 looks very much the same in terms of hero buildup. Apparently some are better at shooting than others( or put more hours into grinding points) but that is about it. If I want to really compete, I should have an Ifrit/panzer/flatline plat minimum to have just a fair chance of combat as anyone else. A game that prides itself on having so many heroes to choose from where a handful of them are remotely viable and even a pedigree selection meta, welp…
Don’t noodle our good heroes, but school our hero blunders into real hunters @HHG!
P.S. second thing is to keep it civil lads, we’re all mature participants of a universal society here.
In fact in the VIP chat a few days ago during the tournament he was boasting that he is so great in the tournament. Everyone was dishing him and he is oblivious and failed to see his actions are spoiling the game. We like to see him playing in the higher bracket and see how he fares …
To be fair he was second place in the first Ifrit tournament at Champion rank. If he cheated his way up there IDK. Or am I confused about whom we’re talking about? Haha! I’ll go find another discussion thread.
You’re welcome to try and do well in a tournament with Halo, Salvatore, or Hivemind if you disagree, until then you’re just committing the wild speculation that you’re complaining about. I am not going to bicker about every hero on Sings list but the point he makes is what most people agree with, that 80% of heroes are not competitive in pvp right now. Its moronic because as I’ve said 5 times now, if Ifrit were energy this thread wouldn’t exist, people would be saying Ifrit is bad because he would get the Flatline treatment from Dogface or Panzer.
Its doubly bad because Dogface and Panzer will also rapidly kill the energy DPS who might be capable of killing Ifrit through the protection of other healer.
Yet shockingly the dudes with 9-10* plat panzers and dogface and here stirring up BS trying to trick people into thinking it’s actually IFRIT who is the problem. Never mind the fact that every top PVP team has Panzer, a MECH dps, in a tournament with 5 bonus BIO HEROES. Nothing suspicious about that right?!