Discussion on what the next September Update should bring

(A) INTRO

There appears to be general acceptance that the first instalment of the Role Warfare (Health and Healing) patch was not a success.

Ifrit was badly overtuned at release, health and healing are now too much, leading to long and boring PVP matches which lack dynamics.

The patch that was supposed to enhance the number of playable PVP heroes did not succeed in doing so - the core group of strong PVP heroes remains pretty much the same pre- and post- patch.

(B) THE ISSUES

Roll on September and what comes next is a complete mystery. While it is HHG’s prerogative on what direction to take the game, I think we can all agree on the following:

(1) Something needs to be done about Health and Healing. Heals and overheals simply cannot be the defining meta of a PVP shooting game. That said, we don’t necessarily want to go back to “kill or be killed in 30 seconds”.

(2) We don’t want another hero to be released in September which is OP upon release but then needs to be quickly nerfed.

  • First of all it is unfair on those who buy the hero at release, and it is ALSO unfair on those who are on the receiving end of being bullied by the OP hero. In this situation, everyone kinda ends up hating the hero for one reason or other - look at Panzer. Everyone kinda hates her, even those who use her. Because she has been the subject of all that negative discussion.

  • Second of all, releasing an OP hero does not put the developers in a good light. It EITHER shows that the developers either were not aware of how OP it was (meaning, they do not understand or play their own game), OR they released it being aware of its OP-ness (meaning, they fully had the intention to cash-grab and are just riding the wave at their customers’ expense). Neither are very complimentary of HHG. I personally I find it very very difficult to believe that HHG only wanted to release a slightly OP hero but it turned out that Panzer and Ifrit went beyond their expectations… respectfully only a fool would believe that.

(3) Related to point (1), we need to do something about the fact that at present, there are 2, and only 2, viable DPS heroes. Both of them Mech. You know who they are. They have no counterpart(s) in the biochem or energy department. In this regard, nerfing them actually isnt’ a solution… in fact going that way would make the game completely unplayable, because there would then simply be no answer at all to the healing/overhealing wall… because no other hero(es) can blast through it.

Hence, we need to discuss the available options for the September patch. My suggestions are found below.

© THE PROBLEM IS DPS

Actually while nerfing healing/overhealing would seem to be the first instinct, the actual problem that the game faces is DPS. Right now there are only 2 Mech heroes who can bust through the healing wall. Their common characteristic is that they have user-controlled burst damage.

(D) WHAT IF WE NERF HEALING AND HEALTH?

Sure, this is an option but I feel I might have a better suggestion.

But before that let’s see what it would take for HHG to nerf Health and Healing.

First of all they would have to re-scale everything they’ve done the past month. It’s not just changing one number, it’s changing at least 60 numbers (for 60 heroes) and making sure that the numbers all match. It would be a complete disaster if ONE of their rescalings were overlooked, or had some wierd interaction with something else, or was bugged in some way or another.

Second it would represent YET ANOTHER U-TURN. That speaks volumes about HHG’s competency.

I see some discussions about creating alternating mechanisms to deal with HealTeams – HealBlockTeams and such. But that is adding another layer of mechanical interactions that need time to design, code, test and implement. That can be a longer term aim but we are at the cusp of needing something urgent.

(E) THE SOLUTION?

In my view there is one easy thing which HHG can do for September update. It is to increase the number of viable DPS heroes from each element, with a view that these DPS heroes can be capable of busting through the healing wall, somewhat like Panzer and Dogface.

Damage wise, this means, star for star and grade for grade, all HHG needs to look at is to scale their numbers up consistent with a team consisting of 3-4 healers like the ones we know of. It is a simpler approach than rescaling all the health numbers or introducing new mechanics that can easily be borked. And because these DPS heroes CAN bust through the healing wall… battles can be shorter. It’s a win-win.

The design parameters for these heroes would be simple: (i) They are DPS. (ii) They need user-controlled burst damage in order to be effective. (iii) They need to survive in order to deal that kind of DPS (hence cannot be squishy like Clyde, Kuno or Artemis), but (iv) on the other hand their mechanics on how they work needs to be such that they are not immortal and/or they have viable counters which can negate their powers or take them out.

(F) CANDIDATES

We need ideally, 2x Energy and 2x Bio heroes to fulful these roles. In addition to creating Hero X I think the following existing heroes could work because their current skill mechanics are already somewhat compatible and all that needs to be adjusted are their numbers to bring them up to the level of a burst damage DPS hero:

Heckler: All that would be needed are buffs to his damage numbers and he could work very well as a burst DPS hero. He needs more health and his Overclock self-damage needs to be removed or scaled down.

Ronin: Ronin’s existing mechanics are actually in line with the burst-damage concept. He would need better numbers overall to Eviscerate and for his Shield (Riposte). He also needs a better Plat skill; it is totally strange and not that useful.

Hideo: I know he is Mech but seriously this guy could really do with some love. Hideo is currently useful only in Patrols and Gauntlet. His reload time is what kills him. For a small clip he doesnt put out much damage and most of the time once his 4 shots are fired and he’s ready for the next assault… the enemies have already healed themselves.

Maven: Unfortunately her existing skills seem to be designed more for PVE than for PVP. If she could have more health she would do well. At plat she has enough DPS to take our Panzers and Dogs, but her weak HP is what lets her down most of the time because she gets killed before she can finish Mechs off like she is supposed to.

Odachi - DPS wise he could do with a slight buff on the higher ends of the scale. At 5 star and below level 60 his damage seems disproportionately high, but this seems to taper off when between 6-8 stars where he is of limited effectiveness. In this range, and higher, he can usually be aux DPS, but it would be risky, even somewhat suicidal, for teams to rely on him as Sole DPS. Hence, he needs a higher damage output at the higher ends of the scale, as well as increased health/armor/elemental armor across the range. His gold skill needs to be un-nerfed to the state prior to the August patch, as it is currently useless.

(G) TIME TO CONCLUDE AND TLDR

Thanks for making it this far! I think a detailed write up giving reasons is better than a short rant.

Basically, the main thoughts behind this post is this…. TLDR:

(1) We need to fix this Health and Healing thingy. It sucks.

(2) Nerfing Health and Healing is potentially complicated and it makes HHG look stupid because they didn’t get their act together in the first place to launch it right

(3) An easy quick solution is to equip players with the tools to bust through the healing wall. But currently there are only 2 of these – Panzer and Dogface. Only Panzer and Dogface teams can win against these stupid healer teams! It’s unfair.

(4) Hence it is crucial that players get some alternatives. Let’s look at some possibilities - Heckler, Ronin, Hideo, Maven and Odachi

(5) HHG should design a Burst DPS hero for September or alternatively buff some of the existing heroes to fill this gap. Let’s discuss this.

This might be the last major-ish contribution that I make, if this does not get acknowledgement or traction either with the devs or the community then… well it would simply be the case that efforts are not worth the trouble…. and I’ll know what sort of signal is being sent.

Let me know what you guys think… hope you are open to at least some of the ideas generated. Again, these are just my personal views on the specific issue of the possible best course of action to salvage the game for September. Also, please no personal attacks.

Cheers guys.

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Great enthusiasm! There’s so much for me to disagree with (but also some fair points of course).

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just go with what u agree with first bro… for now. We know u work for HHG! Haha.

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Honestly Mavin’s health wouldn’t be a problem if her DPS was boosted. At her HP she should be able to shred anyone as a glass cannon. Miasma should effect the enemy with the lowest hp to make it more scary.

I feel some more antidefence heros are needed, and many existing ones could be modified to fill the position. New abilities that disrupt shields and do straight damage through armor would be helpful. Heal block times need to be boosted to be scary.

I think skills and special attacks are the key though. Not more DPS. Raise DPS and healers are useless. Raise healing and DPS are useless. Raise tanks and no one dies. But think how scary surge would be if his lift was 100%. Or if Callidus heal block lasted 15 seconds. Dogman could gain penetrating true damage that ignores armor with heavy cal, balancing is damage to squishy characters but making him a tank killer.

I just wanted to note that Hideo has 9 shots in his clip.

Also his leap attack is cool. It’s a fast recharge, guaranteed hit, good damage and a stun on multiple targets if you’re lucky. Hideo is my friend.

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The “Role Warfare: Health and Healing” change was the first step in a multi-layered topic we are addressing over time :+1: With areas like Hero Balance we are introducing things over time to make sure we get it right.

We will be addressing other areas, like DPS, over time. We will be posting Role Warfare updates (Similar to the first one) whenever we plan to do large-scale updates like it again, so look out for those! We want to keep you guys in the loop as much as we can. :slight_smile:

Just thought I’d chime in and say we are listening!

Happy Hunting!
Icon_portrait_frame_hothead

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@howitzer - Just want to mention that I, for one, really appreciate little comments like this that acknowledge a hotly discussed issue. When devs duck into a topic and leave a message (even without saying anything substantial about it), it helps ease the community mind a great deal just knowing that you’re hearing us. A little bit of visibility goes a long way :+1:

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Totally agreed, being silent makes people think they aren’t heard, stuff like this will keep the frustration at bay

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The game was a lot more fun before the Panzer update.

Ya I have no idea why I wrote 4. I meant to write 3 shots. He has 9 bullets in his clip, but it fires 3 shots.

I love Hideo too, I really do. His bronze skill is valuable for its stagger and does decent damage (better than Panzer’s silver!) and his silver is great for the reasons you mentioned. Unfortunately he does not have the overall package in terms of damage output to match Panzer or Dogface, or to bust through a heal-wall team.

Thanks Howitzer, your reply is greatly encouraging.

I hope you also read my other post about the laundry list of things to fix. That also needs some attention. https://herohunters.hotheadgames.com/t/feedback-to-hhg-about-the-things-that-need-to-be-addressed/5896

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I agree with alot of what you say and I do think that the long term game design, this could be what HHG could shoot for. And your basic point is this - that everything which exists in the pvp game MUST HAVE A COUNTER. I totally agree with that.

Trouble is… it’s already middle of August. The devs designed and put Ifrit into the game without a counter. They had to nerf him and even after that, in the present iteration of the game the only possible and available counters at the moment are Dogface and Panzer teams. No other teams stand a chance of defeating a properly set up heal wall team. And this is a huge problem.

While your ideas are definitely valid ones, the reason why I suggest DPS as the solution to the present situation is because

  • it is easy to implement
  • it is easier to calibrate because HHG would already have enough data based on how much damage is necessary (based on the Panzer and Dogface templates) and hence there is an increased chance of getting it right the first time round
  • even if the calibration is off at launch, adjusting the numbers downward or upward is a much easier task than balancing effect-based balance issues.
  • in this regard the devs don’t need to test different interactions between crowd-control skills, heal block, heal teams, and all that. We can take the existing set ups and run with it
  • and, perhaps more importantly, the player base would enjoy having different DPS options from different classes. I know I would. Wouldn’t you? I have been playing Dogface since day 1 and Panzer since she came on. It is time to give us something different and by something different I don’t mean something different, but worse. I’d like something different, but equally effective.

Cheers for the input though, I appreciate the discussion.

Ya. Yours is the short term fix, mine is the long term I think. I’d like to see an update where you can equip different alternate weapons on each character that give them different play styles. I’d REALLY like a draft PVP where you each pick a hero to ban then take turns picking heros back and forth. Matchups would be based on your top 10 heros power. That would be more interesting then the blind matchups. Anyway. I have a tone of ideas that would give this game more variety and take away some of the monotony of the grind. I hope they are working on that too.

Yes :slight_smile: We did read it :ok_hand::raised_hands:

We read all Forum posts that come through, just fyi :smiley:

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Read this one: where’s my Bridal Gown Operator skin?

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I like your points. I agree that there’s an imbalance on the distribution of roles (DPS, Tanks, healers) across the elements and across the factions. Nvm the factions. But there’s a clear imbalance across the elements. But there’s only so much we can do by suggesting changes. Doesn’t seem to work especially for the big stuff.

The best reaction we can do as a community is to stop gold purchases until we get reasonable update methods/approaches to balancing/ clear roadmap instead of wait for more info post-implementation/new character tests before implementation/ etc. The problems has been happening too frequently, in a consecutive and devil may care manner. Vote with your money.

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I disagree. She is a lot like Kunoichi in that she has great DPS, but her low health makes her a prime target and she often gets killed right away before she can really do anything. That and her Vampiric Cloud ability is pretty much useless in PVP. Imagine her with Panzer-type health in PVP? She would be great even with a useless skill!

At any rate I agree with everything else said by the OP. Months ago when I lost matches in PVP I could tell it was usually because I was out played. The other guy would be switching heroes, timing abilities, landing every shot, rolling around before heroes die to save them, etc. Now it just comes down to who has the higher Panzer/Ifrit/Flatline team.

Usually when I play and lose a match now, I feel like it’s due to someone else paying more money than me. I would love more stat tracking at the end like hit %. Regardless that makes me not want to play or spend more of my own money on the game. I’m fine with higher VIP getting advantages like more hearts, revives, etc. so they have an easier time in PVP with getting higher scores. After all paying for stuff is what keeps the game afloat. When they out right kill my team with minimal effort though, that’s frustrating and no longer fun. I have literally seen 9* Ifrit teams with the other player controlling Ifrit and all he or she does all game is roll.

Oh thanks for replying again, it is much appreciated - really.

I am really hoping … like really, really, really hoping, with all fingers crossed… that the requests which are quite reasonable and not hard to implement can be given. It will really generate massive goodwill with the player base.

Stuff like:

  • Do something about the Black Market
  • Do something about Gorgon, I really don’t want to play it anymore. Please please please!
  • Giving 5 wins for Hard Mode instead of 3
  • Increasing item drop rates
  • Reconsider crafting costs for the chokepoint items
  • Helping players with pvp store by stocking frags x2 or x3 before needing to reset (and/or reducing pvp store reset costs)
  • removing Hero XP drops from PVP crates

There are other things in that post which maybe need more consideration by HHG but the above things are really, really not unreasonable. I hope you guys see that and help us all.

Oh, one more thing. Bronze Canisters. Need them. Need alot. Please send help thanks.

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Great post by Sing but I don’t think you should limit HHG’s focus to just 2 bio and 2 energy heroes, that would help but I think expanding the top tier of DPS from 2 heroes to 6 is a pretty underwhelming goal.

Right now we have 60 heroes and HHG’s “design philosophy” has killed most of them. They are so far from being viable it’s not even funny, you could take the 15 worst heroes in this game, 25% of our total roster, and give them 50% more damage and 50% more health and they still wouldn’t see usage in a competitive PVP team. All these heroes who have never been “meta” should be given massive buffs.

Give Oro’s shots a 50% chance to strip 1 buff off a target and do large bonus damage when he does, Let Fischer’s grapple do double damage + double stun if it hits someone in his trap or he uses it while Submerge is active, have it give a stack of wetwork if he pulls of the combo. For Beck have Scrappy only lose 1 charge during an evasion, let disabling shot start charged at the beginning of the round, double the damage of the frag grenade and triple the bleed, make the bleed stack and let it last for 30 seconds.

This is just me spitballing for a few minutes, these are all really nice buffs but they still wouldn’t make these heroes broken. It’s hard to believe that you guys won’t buff these unused heroes because you want to be “careful” with balance but you dumped a hero like Panzer on us - who was clearly broken to anyone with a working pair of eyes. So let me pitch it this way: I’ve only bought one set (10x) of standard hero crates because I have no interest in 90% of the heroes, so all I do is save my gold for the “exclusive” crates that actually sell the viable heroes - but you could sell more if people actually had a reason to get most heroes, I’d have more heroes on my wishlist and not enough frags to get them or star them up - so I might actually have to start giving you guys money again.