I seriously don’t think you read my posts at all, other than see the words “nerf” and Panzer". Did you completely and utterly fail to see this part (bolded for extra visibility)?
The last time I mentioned nerfing Panzer at all was back before the October nerfs. That was over 2 months ago and 2 patches where she got nerfed. After that round I felt like she was in a good place and stated so. I even responded to you in a thread telling you how she rightfully deserved the nerfs the devs gave her. Now they have gone too far though with the December update.
This is pretty much exactly what I said in my last post so I am not sure why you are trying to disagree with me other than to be a pain? Panzer didn’t need the last round of nerfs. She was still decently competitive back in October. When the devs keep nerfing her month after month things swing from OP, to balanced, to UP. That’s what happened with Panzer. I use to be able to compete with Mauler/Ifrit/Halo teams using Panzer, but now it’s not really possible anymore.
Yup, and this is exactly the point I have been trying to make to nailfox in the past but he doesn’t seem to grasp it. It’s easier to nerf one or two super strong heroes and bring them in line with everyone else, than it is to buff 60+ heroes to bring them in line with the OP heroes. All you are doing is creating more work for yourself buffing the 60 heroes.
There are a few flaws with this line of thinking. First, you are assuming “nerfed” means the hero becomes unusable or under powered. In a perfect world the nerfing would just bring them back in line with other viable heroes. The goal isn’t to have one or two super powerful, OP heroes above all others. It’s to have a group of viable, relatively even power heroes.
Second, unless EVERY hero is buffed at the same time and suddenly becomes viable, you are going to have some that become better than others with buffs. In your same scenario, what if I only have 2-4* and silver versions of these new heroes while other players have 8-10* gold and plat versions? What if I don’t have them at all? This is unfortunately just how the game works and what drives sales. Having a bigger arsenal of heroes and being able to level them up quicker is what people pay for. Trust me, it sucks. I had my Gammond and Matador almost maxed stars before they got nerfed and then it took me months to rebuild my PVP team and become competitive again.
I noticed, but still you deserved it more than most, even if you had not been asking for it the latest month, and yes I have not read what you have written after October as I have not focused as much on the game after mid August.
Well, history show again and again that heroes get nerfed too much, you do mention Panzer/Gammon/Mandrake yourself.
If heroes in your main team has not been ruined by too much nerf then you have not lost anything you have spent money/time on developing. With other heroes getting better with buffs then you just have to start building those you have not earlier invested inn, but still you have not lost on your main team while building up new ones.
Be aware that the experience is widely different depending on what power level you play, so we all would feel the balance in the game different. If you now struggle with Mauler/Halo, start building a Ronin team to counter what most use or join the Mauler/Halo as they are equally available to all. Don’t start asking for new nerfs, that could potentially lead to the same result as with Gammon or Panzer. Or wait for the new Mech POWER DPS to replace Panzer coming in next update?
Killing what people have built up and invested inn time after time will just piss people off, and when this happens too many times people loose trust and interest. If we could move over the progress from one hero to another hero then this would not be a problem, but that is not the case.
Enjoy the Panzer nerfs @Deathleech, I hope more nerfs of you main players will come, you had it coming
Had not been asking for it the last couple months*. I re-iterate, Panzer was totally fine in October. She has gone from fine to over nerfed imo. Especially with other metas becoming MUCH more prevalent.
Wow, spiteful much? This just goes to show your immaturity.
I am not asking for nerfs on heroes because I want to just ruin everyone’s fun. I truly enjoy Hero hunters and want to keep seeing it thrive. Panzer is, and has been one of my main heroes I use since a month or two after her release. Furthermore I haven’t invested a ton of money in the game so it’s harder for me to adjust and react to meta shifts than it is for others. Why then do you think I want certain heroes nerfed? Because it’s good for the game.
As Papa_Marsh points out, HotHeads current model isn’t sustainable. Rather than fix issues and make a large group of heroes viable, they allow one meta to dominate the game. It’s only months later they start nerfing (and then go to far usually).
Right now the Halo/Mauler meta is dominating. Rather than buff up dozens of weaker, under performing heroes to try and make things more balanced, the quickest and easiest solution is to nerf the Halo/Mauler meta. That would hopefully give us Dogface, Panzer, Mauler, Halo, and Ronin as viable DPS. From there they could address Odachi and a couple other heroes and buff them so they are brought up in power. Basically meet in the middle. If they did this we could have a solid 4-5 meta teams with minimal effort from the developers (only really balancing 3-5 heroes).
Unfortunately they probably won’t touch Mauler or Halo for months, and when they do they will go overboard on the nerfs, or new heroes will have popped up that were shifting the meta anyways. Then no one will use Mauler or Halo because their’s a new OP meta.
Instead of addressing all the issues in the game (min/maxing, sandbagging, cash flow, most the heroes being useless), the devs would rather do as many cash grabs as possible. It’s a shame because some of these have such simple fixes and the devs just refuse to do anything.
At any rate, I think the last round of nerfs was too much for Panzer. She is still decent though. The Mauler/Halo/Ifrit meta is just really powerful right now and over shadowing anything else.
I am not sure why you always are saying she can’t kill healers… the only healers that are remotely difficult to kill with Panzer are Ifirt and Heimlock, and that’s because of their elemental type. It doesn’t help when you are stun locked by Mauler either and can’t actually do any damage:
She can kill healers but it ain’t given to kill energy healers in backline behind barricade with her initial 20 shots, something that on paper should have been a massacre. It is at least easier now with Nights recent nerf. Ifrit is naturally harder to kill being both Bio and backline, Heimlock is more about his high health and bio, both makes sense that Panzer has a harder time to kill. Flatline has probably replaced Night now on many teams with the recent changes.
I consider myself out the conversation now, but I had to chime in here.
You can’t be serious right? Your expectation for Panzer to be viable is for her - a frontline shotgun hero - to kill a backline hero in one magazine??? And for that to be “a given”???
If that’s your line of thinking then we are absolutely NEVER going to reconcile our opinions. Your argument is nowhere even close to grounded in reality.
While I don’t always agree with what you say, I must +1 this:
it puts unrealistic pressure on Panzer if people are expecting her to kill any backline energy hero in 10 seconds. She’s still damned powerful though, blast those covers to smithereens.
In my view Panzer should be able to take out Night or Flatline (not given but high chance) with her initial 20 shots (now 18 shots) due to the following reasons:
Matches last maybe in average 40 seconds and it takes 10 seconds to reload.
Those 15 seconds shooting (5sec)+ reloading (10sec) is often enough for these healers to fully recover their health or get supported by others (shielded, armored up, counter measured from caine++)
Both Night and Flat are Tiny Energy heroes and should have health accordingly (fat heroes are easier to hit and normally have highest health)
Most other DPS will spend way less than 15 seconds to kill their opposing element including reload (Panzer 5 sec shooting 18 shots+10 seconds reload time = 15 seconds)
Again this is my view and expectation for an Initial burst Mech DPS hero , I don’t use Panzer anymore as she don’t fit a top team combo anymore, neither do she for any of the top ranked PvP players anymore and this might be part of the reason?
I think that’s the root of this entire issue then. It’s that you are assigning a role to Panzer that isn’t intended for her. A frontline shotgun hero is - by design - meant to be WEAK against the rear line. That’s just how the game is set up. Panzer is slotting excellently into her intended role now that she is weak to rear line heroes and still extremely strong against closer enemies.
You’re comparing apples to oranges here. 1. You’re comparing other DPS heroes against their intended targets. 2. Why would you include reload time? That’s the entire design of the hero. She’s meant to have a blast of damage and then be basically useless while she ‘recovers’.
I think you need to accept that Panzer is simply not meant to be strong against the rear line. It’s not how she was designed and it’s not how she was ever intended to be used. The fact that you view her this way completely explains your complaints about all the nerfs - you’ve been using her wrong the whole time and now you’re no longer able to do so effectively. This is a good thing.
What the intended targets are is a difference of opinion, you have your and I have mine
That’s the main point, the entire design of the hero, if she can’t kill during a burst she won’t be doing your team much good.
Well since no one of the top PvP players are using her anymore (all have her maxed out) either is for me a pretty good indication that she is now nerfed too much to fit a top combo setup.
@Papa_Marsh There is no 100% right or wrong in this discussion. I’m not saying your expectation is wrong, because that is your opinion and view of the game. This is my view and expectations of the game, I respect that you have another view and expectation of her. Bottom line for me is that she is not good enough anymore for a starting lineup to give the best possible chance to win any given PvP match.
Fair enough. We shall agree to disagree. I do maintain however that it is a fact (not opinion) that the intended purpose of a frontline shotgun hero is not to effectively kill rear-line heroes.
Beyond that though, you’re correct in that there is no black&white answer here. I think we both have valid claims and views. Either way, I’ve enjoyed the discussion and exploring a viewpoint conflicting with my own.
I just want to point out that a full round of shotgun shells generally will not kill a full power Night or Ifrit (10*, +4 plat bars). It WILL however, kill weaker heroes (8-9*, no bars into plat).
For the heroes it doesn’t kill, you can always reload a few shells and then keep going if the opponent is almost dead. There is no reason to full reload to 18 shells unless the target immediately regained a huge portion of their hp. Also using her Breech and Clear is a great way to wipe out a ton of health on a hero.
Using a full round of shells with Assault Breecher, plus Breech and Clear, and then maybe having to reload a few times is usually more than enough to kill all but the strongest heroes in the game.
I agree with the need to have a better range of available heroes by leveling the playing field.
I also agree that all the tweaks are more penalizing the newer players vs the older ones who have a better roster depth.
But i believe the way the matchups are made are personnally resposible for the meta situation we are currently facing.
In most of the other “hero collection” games i’ve played before, the “pvp” is usually played while knowing the composition of the opponent’s team. This way you can actually choose heroes that have an advantage over the other player. It’s up to the defending player to rotate/upgrade his defending team in order to stay competitive.
Since we’re always going blind, we’ll always go with a team that has high chances in general over one with a clear purpose.
How in the world would that work for HH? If you give one player the ability to see the other’s lineup, then you might as well just hand them the win from the start. How would you ever make that system work within the context of HH PvP without giving one player a MASSIVE advantage?
In truth, it stems a lot from my personnal dissatisfaction with the overall way pvp is handled in this game compared to other similar games.
Problems encountered playing pvp as is :
facing min-maxed team
unoriginal meta teams leading to most players using same lineups all the time.
usage of bots when match-making doesn’t find a “reasonable” adversary.
unexplainable lag/disconnection happening way too often even when on reliable wifi/cell connectivity.
roll-around evasion
sketchy matchmaking.
Usually match-ups with defined defense team in other games doesn’t require both play at the same time. It also limits available targets to a few possibilities (… say 3). Most of the fight is done automatically, you just click on heroes’ ability when you want to use them.
This would probably fix the connectivity issue on its own. Knowing the enemy faced would allow you to use appropriate heroes to face them instead of hoping you picked the right of the 2-3 popular meta-teams circulating at the moment.
In this way you fight against relatively close-ranking opponents as opposed to sketchy match-making algorithm selected opponent. And you have a choice of 2-3 oppenents so you can go against the one you actually have a shot.
But it’s not even close to a perfect system as those who are available to play close to period end are advantaged over others… It’s also a plague of the current system though.
In truth, i don’t expect HH to even envisage a solution like this since it would change the way their pvp works way too much.
I just wanted to vent a bit, like everyone else in here.
Games like mortal kombat x mobile. Injustice 2, marvel contest of champions has exact pvp strategy as u say. They show the players lineup. But u both nvr play at the same time. Infact u play against the bot that has the lineup of the particular person. So u can ezly find the best team against ur opponents
But this is not the case in HH. Its make both parties play at real time.
